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| Tien vs yamcha vs krillin. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 27 2017, 08:11 PM (1,384 Views) | |
| Thiln | Aug 29 2017, 04:59 PM Post #31 |
 
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The Cell Jrs were playfully torturing everyone at the time. To accomplish the objective of being able to do whatever they want at their leisure against their opponents would have required absolute subjugation so that the victim can't resist. We see how this isn't the case though as Tien was shown standing and mustering up a weak, but notable resistance as Cell is relaying to Gohan how only a few are able to fight back - Tien not being one of them but still remaining upright for a longer period than the other humans and attempting to strike his Cell Jr after Yamcha and Krillin have already collapsed. Well I suppose you could claim Tien made no increases from that six day period if you neglect the previous regimens with Karin and Kami as not having bequeathed too much benefit for him after a set amount of time. I feel it violates the pattern of growth and progression that's been going on since mid to late Dragon Ball. It runs in direct contradiction to past precedents so I don't prescribe to this arbitrary notion of Tien making paltry gains just so Krillin can be forcibly wedged into a higher position despite the setbacks and counterfactual evidence placing him below a vastly more powerful and training advantaged Gohan. It may not be prudent to cite Piccolo, but he did make considerable gains from training with King Kai for a mere six days; enough so to warrant acclaim from Nail and a remark that if he had merged with Kami he could have defeated Freeza (who was only known to Nail in his first form). Should the Grand Elder be taken at his word of the Child of Katas halving his power during his physical diffusion then Piccolo would have required a power level that minimally exceeds 275,000 for him to be able to defeat Freeza in his first form. How this is relevant to Tien is that it reinforces the general potency of King Kai's training. It was a product of the North Kai's tutelage. Most of the humans underwent the same rigours and though their increases may not have been as profound somehow, despite being with King Kai for far longer than Piccolo was, it still would have elevated them considerably as has been the case past regimens undergone by them.
Relative to how he arrived on Namek, it's clear the power Krillin received from the Grand Elder's potential unlocking ability would have been astonishing. It was the first extraordinary power spike he had underwent beyond the confines of Earth ever in his life; the increase heightening him to levels he didn't think possible. But just as the Daizenshuu explains, such levels wouldn't have been attainable if the person had already accessed all of their potential presently available. Drawing out Dormant Power First Appearance: Chapter 265 Category: special People: Saichourou, Elder Kaioshin Special Characteristics: This is a technique that draws out the dormant power that each person has. In Saichourou’s case, he only triggers the drawing out of that person’s dormant power; if there is no power sleeping inside that person, no change will occur. He is able to use this technique merely by holding his hand over the person’s head. The V-jump magazine actually characterises the 75,000 power level as being Krillin's estimate once his "potential has finished unlocking". There's no ambivalence in the phrasing of that statement to argue that he could have progressed further due to the unlock. 75,000 was the culmination of Krillin's upsurge in power since he first received the increase thanks to the Grand Elder. What's more, admissions and narrative positioning of other characters like when Vegeta states that he would have to lower his power to its limit for Krillin to fatally injure him and Piccolo taking charge in the expected confrontation with Vegeta after Freeza has been defeated all portray both Krillin and even Gohan as the lesser subsidiaries throughout the fight. Vegeta already was beginning to measure up against Freeza in his first form; his recognition of Gohan and Krillin as contributing players only confirms that they could potentially offer some benefit with Vegeta being at the obvious helm and shouldering the majority of the effort, I suspect. Both of them were petrified of Freeza beforehand. It isn't as though they harboured much confidence in their hopes to succeed against the tyrant. Vegeta just happened to give them encouragement in the form of offering them potential roles in the battle that might allow him to win. I would liken those conditions to #17's suspicion about the Z-fighters being capable of overpowering #18 if they worked together. It wouldn't be Piccolo or Tien who is handling the majority of the legwork but Vegeta and perhaps to a lesser extent Trunks. I personally have Tien at 62,000-65,000 at this time. It could be considerably more because as I mentioned above, another pupil of King Kai's received another massive increase in a fraction of the time he was on the planet; of that time, 130 days were spent contention free with Krillin not training as he was deceased. Considering how much characters are capable of making in a short time frame, 130 days sounds amply generous to compensate for any presumed gap that may have formed. This isn't some tug of war feud over whether Krillin is actually stated the stronger or not. I know he is courtesy of Toriyama's word; as always, I'm challenging the veracity of its claim. I present conditions that are expressly referenced by the protagonist himself as meaningful qualities of the RoSaT that will apparently aid in strengthening both himself and his potential teeming son because it's "irrelevant". How is it irrelevant? How do conditions that are similar to the RoSaT deemed irrelevant in the progressional growth of Tien? Several times now I have made references and given explanations on Gohan's power progression failing to allow him to reach a different classifiable status than the humans or surpass even the Base Saiyans. Tien was depicted as avoiding a Ki projectile in tandem with the very same Base Saiyan whom Gohan was unable to surpass despite having his potential unlocked over four years previously and having trained with a Super Saiyan; mind you, I expect his increase from the unlock tapered off as Krillin's did. I don't want Toriyama's comments or Yamcha's myopic mental note. I want corroborative evidence through feats that that attests to Krillin being stronger, not statements, feats. This is a matter of seeing whether the manga's actionable feats translate to Krillin being stronger. I offered counter evidence and have cited it several times now; as of yet the only opposing piece offered is an outdated potential unlock from Namek that was confirmed by the very source that estimated Krillin's power to have ceased at said power level. By precedent alone, for Tien to have avoided the Bionic Punisher, a technique that induced minor splattering in Piccolo later on, it would have required a greater power level than the one Vegeta earned in his final zenkai on Namek on account of the cyborgs apparently being stronger than Freeza. Krillin admitted that he lacked the means for damaging a much weaker Vegeta at the time; and though he would have improved considerably thanks to training, the quality of it was still lacklustre and he languished in the afterlife for 130 days while Tien persisted in his training. Piccolo with his weights on was mentally considered to be the most powerful per Gero's calculations after Vegeta (however flawed those calculations may have been with neglect towards the concept of amplifying one's power). What you said in your argument also connotes to Gohan being weaker than suppressed Piccolo. However, we can still see Gero's Bionic Punisher having an effect on this Piccolo; the same attack Gero aimed through Tien and Goku.  With the precedent Vegeta's avoidance of Freeza's Death Beam set, for anyone who is below him in power against characters who are alleged to be stronger than the tyrant, let alone considerably weaker, should have resulted in instant death for them when being attacked with a projectile from a more powerful fighter. Dr Gero's last calculated estimate for Vegeta witnessed him being considerably stronger than everyone else in his Oozaru form. Since the onset he's been interpreting the powers of the characters from antiquated information and feats. The benchmark for the Saiyan arc was Vegeta as he happened to be the most powerful at the time. What's more, Gero was under the impression that he had done away with Piccolo with a casual ocular blast; even with Piccolo having recovered, it's not as though he overhead Piccolo rejecting the attack as being enough to kill him or that he was at his personal limit. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 29 2017, 05:09 PM Post #32 |
Izanagi!
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And the Cell Kid could just as easily power up a tiny bit in order to achieve that total subjugation, but it didn't. Unless Tenshinhan is ~ SSJ Vegeta and Trunks, I'm not sure what relevance his performance has at all. Everyone was struggling against them, and everyone was at a different level of power, so it seems clear to me that Tenshinhan wasn't down on the ground because the Cell Kid didn't want him to be. How much stronger did he get? We don't get any statements, so it couldn't have been by a large amount. It doesn't matter if you don't want Krillin being wedged into a higher position, that's literally what happens in the Manga and in Toriyama's own words. We get told that Piccolo's power increased exponentially. We don't get the same statement regarding Tenshinhan, so should we just assume that he got the same boost or an incredibly significant one just because we feel like it? You can make assumptions that Tenshinhan should've gained a massive amount from Kaio's training all you want, and it might be perfectly accurate, but he still ends up weaker than Krillin. |
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| Thiln | Aug 29 2017, 05:33 PM Post #33 |
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Why would the Cell Jr refrain from partaking in the kind of hapless one-sided torture that his fellow spawn were meting out on Krillin and Yamcha? They're all fundamentally the same. On that matter, all of the Cell Jrs were emitting an aura at the time, which by the manga's standards is typically a perceivable standard of exertion. We don't see any disparities in this rule throughout the manga, iirc. The Jrs were pressuring even Vegeta and Trunks long before Cell instructed them to begin killing. I don't recall the Jrs being outfitted with varying degrees of power. Did they just arbitrarily decide to exert themselves, which is indicated by the auras, for the need of stringing Tien along when such power should logically have killed Tien and the others barring a few exceptions? Strong enough to reflexively avoid an attack that induced minor blood splatter from a suppressed Piccolo. Furthermore, if you want to take the Daizenshuu at its word, Tien and Chaozu were depicted as the only ones to have successfully avoided Buu's Human Extinction Attack. The farseeing arts and positioning of Kami's Lookout allows for one to see everything that goes on below on the Earth's surface, including the locations of #8, #17 and Cyborg Tao. But shifting back to the argument of Tien vs Krillin, can you yourself offer a referencable point in time when Krillin surpassed Tien that's been confirmed? I ask this because in light of what we know about Piccolo having accomplished thanks to six meagre days with King Kai, Krillin's power having peaked at 75,000 and then his being deceased for 130 days, I'm questioning when this placement of superiority started, how it came to be beyond Toriyama's "good word", and whether or not any of it is attributable to an unconfirmed suspicion of Krillin having somehow raised himself beyond Tien via #18. No, because it correlates to past precedents with characters making considerable gains, albeit ones that pale in comparison to what Piccolo and the Super Saiyans made in preparation for the cyborgs. Also, I would like to see some verifiable evidence on when Krillin attained this level for reasons stated above. Or do we take Krillin's supremacy as having certifiably started at Namek with a power level of 75,000 when a fighter who spent over 44x the amount of time training at King Kai's than what Piccolo underwent. Keep in mind that Nail believed Piccolo's remergence with Kami might enable him to defeat Freeza in his first form, a power he experienced and heard the estimate of firsthand. The Grand Elder described the Child of Katas' power as being halved when they diffused. So is the takeaway information supposed to indicate that Piccolo's power rivaled half or more of first form Freeza's thanks to six days with King Kai? Well the implications are strong there. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 29 2017, 05:53 PM Post #34 |
 
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I'm still honestly failing to see why this is being argued. Not trying to insult anybody, but it's set in stone who the strongest of these three is, whether we agree on a personal level or not, or whether our interpretations of "teh gainz" fits in (which, really, our idea of how gains should work is completely worthless in the eyes of how the story was written on a whim). The only debatable aspect I see is how big the gap is between Krillin and Tenshinhan, and considering the major focus put on Krillin during the lead-up to this current tournament (and the lack of focus for Tenshinhan), wherein Krillin was stated to have gotten back to form as well as surpassed his previous limits, I can't fathom how Tenshinhan would be ahead at this point. Of course, if in a soon-to-be episode, we learned Tenshinhan was in fact even stronger—special techniques excluded—then I'd reevaluate the available information. As it stands now, I don't understand why Tenshinhan must be stronger, especially if it's because he trained in the gap between Cell and Boo. But that's just me. ¯\(°_°)/¯ |
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 29 2017, 05:54 PM Post #35 |
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Izanagi!
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So what's your point, Tenshinhan can stand up to a SSJ Vegeta level opponent? That's just absurd, and isn't something that's supported at all. The only way the Cell Kid scene makes sense is that the Cell Kids were using different levels of power. That's why Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Goku and Piccolo weren't dead in milliseconds. Regarding the human extinction attack, any evidence as to how strong it was? Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P3.2-3 Context: as Kuririn goes up against Punter Marron: “That person dad’s fighting is big and looks strong…I wonder if he’ll be alright?...” Yamcha: “It’s fine, fine! Someone like that doesn’t matter at all! Your father is the strongest in the world! Among Earthlings…” Yamcha says the last part to himself, so it's not as if he's saying it just to appease Marron. Narratively speaking, and speaking in terms of the actual situation, Krillin > Tenshinhan in the Boo saga. He couldn't close the gap in the 7 years, and Yamcha still says this statement with total confidence, meaning that the gap is still likely quite large. Why are you trying to apply Piccolo's outlier gains to Tenshinhan's potential ones? Piccolo's gains were ridiculously large compared to Goku's, while his time spent there was less than 20x the time that Goku spent there. Even if you assume that Tenshinhan gained the same amount as Goku, he'd still be comfortably below Krillin by the time he was revived. |
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| Thiln | Aug 29 2017, 05:56 PM Post #36 |
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To be honest, I'm done arguing. It takes up a lot of time and I feel the momentum is going in circles. I still can't fathom how Krillin is stronger in light of circumstances, but consider this to be my concession. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 29 2017, 06:01 PM Post #37 |
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Yeah, that's basically how this debate always goes – in circles. 
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| ahill1 | Aug 29 2017, 07:46 PM Post #38 |
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Kuririn also said how he thought he was about his limits, and a sudden growth in power, multiplying his powers by many-fold, completely flabbergasted him. He was around 10,000 (a bit more, actually) as soon as Saichoro unlocked it, and steadily continued to get stronger, later facing someone of 23,000 while still holding back due to being Goku's body. Against Freeza, his power was high enough to make Vegeta consider it worthy against an opponent whose powers exceeded even the 530,000. I can't imagine Kuririn being even labeled as a help against someone of said strength if he were, like, multifold weaker. Vegeta didn't mention his techniques or a sneaky attack, he flat out mentioned his powers rising and therefore being a help in his fight against Freeza.
Does it specifically mention "once his power has finished unlocking"? If so, can you show me it?
I am well aware of this, and while it should depict Kuririn as way below Vegeta, I fail to see Kuririn being multifold below or so, considering this same Vegeta was still counting with the bald's power against someone hypothetically stronger than 530,000. Kuririn could be a help against Freeza just like King Cold would be against SSJ Goku, despite being implied to be way weaker than 100% Freeza. Vegeta also stated Kuririn had to beat him to an inch of his life, so maybe lowering his BP to its limit would have a bigger effect on the injuries, dunno. We don't know what Vegeta meant by limits, considering Kuririn and Gohan could suppress their Batlle Powers all the way back to 0.
It's also possible Gohan and Kuririn didn't fully realize how depth they powers were until Vegeta pointed it out. Gohan comments that Freeza sure is strong, but they also have grown really strong, as if it was something he just noticed thanks to Vegeta's comment. Vegeta also states how none of them seems to have realized that those Earthlings's BPs are constantly rising, with Kuririn and Gohan's face conforming to their obliviousness about it: http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-101-index-2.html
I have Tenshinhan at Trunks' arrival at wherever i feel having Kuririn. If he is at 75,000 then Tenshinhan would be way lower than that.
It's irrelevant because we have an actual confirmation on how Tenshinhan stacks to Kuririn, where he is still behind even at the Majin Boo saga. With this, we know that even all of Tenshinhan's special training in harsh environments wasn't enough to bring the gap down to 0. I am not contesting those special environments won't add in Tenshinhan's gains, but they are still quite irrelevant in face of a direct comparison between them, made not just by Yamcha but by AT himself. I have already said and repeat, the facts that one character keeps training does not forcefully mean he has to outstrtip another one who doesn't, specially if there was a big enough lead between them to begin with. Tenshinhan was still stronger than Kuririn by the Saiyans' arrival (slightly so, going by official figures), but we do have a confirmation that the status quo has changed by the Cell saga (Yamcha saying how Kuririn is the strongest Earthling) and a confirmation that the bald midget still has the title of the strongest Earthling by the Boo saga (left clear by AT's interview)... so, since they went with different routes of power ups by the Freeza saga (Tenshinhan with Kaio-sama's training and Kuririn with the potential unlock and many battles), I can only conclude this different "route of 'training' " was what tip the scales in Kuririn's favor, to such a degree that even Tenshinhan's more rigorous training didn't make him catch up to his Earthling buddy. As simple as that. There's not a single feat in the series showing Tenshinhan is above Kuririn (well, unless you do count his hax technique as one), whereas the first character who opens his mouth to compare Kuririn to the others Earthlings has Kuririn as the strongest one, which is made clear to be the case even at the end of the Boo saga, ergo Kuririn > Tenshinhan.
Which is the closest comparison we got between them; I mean, we don't really need feats when we are dealing with a director author's comments concerning who is the strongest. The author doesn't need to back up what he said with feats from the actual manga, because he was the one who wrote the story and, therefore, has total control to what happens there. It's not like the content in the manga contradicts his own statement, with Tenshinhan's training and all that jazz being mere implications, who are still overshadowed by one of his characters' comments in the manga, who establishes Kuririn being at least the strongest in the Cell saga.
While the attacks are the same, the one Gero used on Piccolo could have "less strength" in it than the one he used to destroy the city. Using on an actual character that while suppressed was at least stronger than Gohan (whose powers should be considerably above 1 million, at that time) is rather different than using to smash the capital of the city in smithereens. Besides, passing through the pages a bit more, we see how Piccolo actually feel towards such an attack: http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-149-index-2-page-2.html Yeah, he considers it pathetic and says he put on an act solely to save Goku. Piccolo couldn't see Freeza's final form death beam at all, and this latter's BP should be around 3 millions if we consider Goku's official BP in the Daizenshuu. Piccolo had an advanatge over 2nd form Freeza even after this latter did 2 power ups, and 2nd form Freeza's initial BP was already above 1 million. Considering this, there wasn't a multifold gap between Piccolo and final form Freeza, and yet Vegeta was the only one of the Z-senshi who could react to Freeza's attacks. Based on this, we can assume that: 1--> reacting to these kind of attacks aren't really something consistent, and can be performed by beings with a much bigger disadvantage Piccolo had against final form Freeza; 2--> Goku and Tenshinhan were relatively close to Dr. Gero; 3--> Dr. Gero suppressed his powers a lot, allowing Goku and Tenshinhan to dodge it. I honestly don't think Goku and Tenshinhan dodging an attack that wasn't even aimed at them (it was aimed at the city) is enough to conclude they were close in power. Later evidences suggest even the suppressed level Piccolo was at was considerably superior to the Earthlings, and yet that power was most likely a good deal below base Vegeta. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 29 2017, 09:35 PM Post #39 |
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Ahill, here's the V-Jump stuff. I don't know if the quote from Thiln is simply a piece that wasn't translated for that page, but it does mention "after fighting Gurd." http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/ Just scroll down a ways. |
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| ahill1 | Aug 31 2017, 10:29 PM Post #40 |
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Now that I am thinking about it, couldn't the V-Jump BPs represent their powers when facing Ginyu-Goku? Vegeta being at 250k there would at least make a heck more of sense than against 1st form Freeza. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 31 2017, 10:49 PM Post #41 |
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I think the one for Vegeta specifies his battle with Freeza. |
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| Decibel | Aug 31 2017, 11:35 PM Post #42 |
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Can somebody clarify Gokus 180,000 in the V jump? Is kaioken mentioned at all? if not that number and the big "?" next to Gohan indicates they were just taking random guesses |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 31 2017, 11:48 PM Post #43 |
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I'm not sure about the Kaio-Ken, but Gohan's power when he's enraged really is a mystery. Not that I disagree with the V-Jump taking guesses about battle powers in general. |
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| ahill1 | Sep 1 2017, 07:04 PM Post #44 |
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Goku is listed at 180k, but no Kaioken or anything like this is ever specified, as well as a suppression by Goku's part... the 180k is the only thing present as far as I know (I might be wrong). As for the "?" in Gohan, yeah, it's like Pyrus said... 200,000 is supposed to be his power when calm, but his enraged self is a mystery (described as "much more"). Anyway those BPs look a*** outside of Gohan's. Vegeta at 250k is lol-worthy when he could hold off Freeza for a while with both using a good deal of effort. I have already a hard time imagining handsome Zarbon doing that to 24k Vegeta, let alone someone at less than 50%... Herms has speculated in the past that some of the Weekly-Jump numbers have come out of Akira Toriyama himself due to how "random" they look, like Mr. Popo at 1,030, saying they maybe wouldn't come up with such a random number if not for AT's guidance. I prefer to think their thought process is just random ^_^. |
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